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Thread: Accenting: Gladstone or Moeller?

  1. #21
    Inactive Member FlamTriplet's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tim_Wilson:
    Hi Flamtriplet,

    Great to hear from you and thanks for the advice, very useful.

    I have a quick question about this:

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
    A couple of things Joe showed me, were to play buzzez instead of accents. Play a paradiddle rlrR lrlL with the capitals as buzzez. Pull out accents as well rrrR lllL. He called it a squeeze out technique.
    My studies with Jim and Joe are blended, so I'm not sure who said what---it all makes sense
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand the buzz studies - there a are great examples in Master Studies. What I would love to have more of an insight into though is the thinking behind these kinds of techiques (buzzed paradiddles, for example). Is about gaining greater control over normal accents? general stick control? improving muscle co-ordination and relaxation? Or simply improving your buzz roll?

    Hope that makes sense,

    Cheers,

    Tim.
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Using a variety of techniques helps you develop your hands. And then, in the heat of passion, your body will ultimately let you know what technique works for whatever you have to do.

  2. #22
    Inactive Member FlamTriplet's Avatar
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    A couple of things Joe showed me, were to play buzzez instead of accents. Play a paradiddle rlrR lrlL with the capitals as buzzez. Pull out accents as well rrrR lllL. He called it a squeeze out technique.
    My studies with Jim and Joe are blended, so I'm not sure who said what---it all makes sense

    Joe played me a ruff a diddle lrl RLRR rlr LRLL, which blew me away---it took a few years to get that one down. He threw the sticks and created a very nice buzz sound with the quick ruff.

    It's all about being relaxed, but sometimes you have to use some energy or tension. I play finger technique either french style(thumbs on top) or palms down(chaffee showed me that way) And I work each finger for exercise. Sometimes my pointer finger leaves the stick(or fulcum) and kinda hangs on top, and the thumb and middle finger are an offset fulcrum. Kinda like a fulcrum with fingers around it. Make sense?

    When I play with my band, which requires endurance, I go up into my arms and use wrists as well. The larger musicles deal better with endurance than the small ones in the hands. The fingers and hands just keep the stick relaxed in my hand and I use mostly arms. I played a jazz gig recently and I noticed a lot of control by using my arms to form the notes. It has a very primative feel, but it works great, especially of you are tired. Plus it keeps the dynamics more even. It may have been cause I did not warm up----arms are a great way to start cold. But the dinga ling on the ride was more wrist.

    I dunno, technique changes for whatever situation you are in, musically and physically.

  3. #23
    Inactive Member CLWarunki's Avatar
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    Thomas Lang promotes the Gladstone technique in his DVD... and it has it uses.

    The Moeller technique is great for heavy hitters (big back beats) and spaces in between notes... however I think the faster you play, the less likely you are to employ this approach. I use Moeller a lot with match AND trad.

    As for the fulcrum, a lot of players and teachers have recently shown that by having the thumb/middle finger as the fulcrum your hand is more relaxed and "open" rather than gripping the stick with your pointer finger and thumb. I use the middle finger fulcrum as well. Weckl is all about this now too since studying with Freddy.

    I think what works best for you is the way to go, as long as it is not causing harm. Why not explore and use them all!

  4. #24
    Inactive Member Lee Collins's Avatar
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    Yes, I found today that the 2nd finger and thumb was more relaxed.

    So, any chance someone could read my previous post and help me out? [img]smile.gif[/img]

  5. #25
    Inactive Member donu's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by donu:
    Morello/Weckl grip as the fulcrum is between thumb and second finger the second finger act as fulcrum
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, this is new to me so perhaps you could explain to me if I'm doing this right based on what you're saying. I've made a short video clip, going between index finger and thumb fulcrum, and second finger and thumb fulcrum. At 00:12 to 00:25 I change to what I THINK is the second finger and thumb grip. If this is correct, what am I meant to do with my index finger? Also, if the second finger and thumb is a fulcrum, is it used in both hands at the same time? [img]confused.gif[/img]

    http://freespace.virgin.net/roman.five/Grips.avi
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What Dave explain in fact ( correct me if i'am wrong)is that fingers should get natural position, the thumb is not at same level of first finger or of second finger because naturally it's not where he goes, remove you stick and imagine you old a stick but without thinking of where to place you thumb compare to you finger, this should look something like that

    DW DVD1 0

    The second first finger hold the stick with the thumb and the first finger act only as a guide ( unless you need more power or precision)

    On you vid i think you don't let you stick rebound enough, i recomemb you the Weckl DVD "How to Develop Thechnique"

    Seeing you vid i wonder if someone who learn with Morello can post a short vid like you for show how he play finger control with palm down using this Morello/Weckl grip because i still don't totally understand the role of each finger

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 19, 2005 04:50 PM: Message edited by: donu ]</font>

  6. #26
    Inactive Member Lee Collins's Avatar
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    Oh I see, the 2nd finger curls around the stick whereas I was just letting the stick sort of touch the side of my 2nd finger. Thanks for that donu!
    Oh yeah, the reason I wasn't bouncing well was because of the grip and because I wasn't really concentrating on anything in particular except looking at my hand. My buzz rolls are pretty ace! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
    I will get that DVD though, been meaning to for ages.

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 19, 2005 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

  7. #27
    Inactive Member XNavyDrummer's Avatar
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    Rudy,

    Donu is right about the first finger being used as a guide for the stick. The stick is allowed to move along the inside of the first finger. And he's also right about the rebound part, you need to get those back fingers out of the way when the stick is rebounding.

    The best view of the Weckl/Moeller technique (for the right hand) is either on the "Technique" or "Practice" video where he discusses playing quarter, eighths, triplets and sixteenths on the high-hat while keeping roughly the same arm and wrist motion. This is the essence of the technique.

  8. #28
    Inactive Member Lee Collins's Avatar
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    Thanks andy. When you say keep the backfingers out of the way, how do you mean exactly? Do you mean keep them wrapped around the stick?
    I must admit, I think I tend to stop the stick from coming naturally all the way back. And is this 2nd finger grip for both hands simultaneously or just for left hand? Stupid question I guess but just checking. I guess it is a complete grip for both hands and not just for one, ala, like trad grip? [img]smile.gif[/img]

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 19, 2005 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

  9. #29
    Inactive Member donu's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rudy_Ment:
    Thanks andy. When you say keep the backfingers out of the way, how do you mean exactly? Do you mean keep them wrapped around the stick?
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yes but not tense, Let the stick bounce [img]wink.gif[/img]

    And is this 2nd finger grip for both hands simultaneously or just for left hand? Stupid question I guess but just checking. I guess it is a complete grip for both hands and not just for one, ala, like trad grip? [img]smile.gif[/img]
    [/QB]
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For match grip yes

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 19, 2005 06:53 PM: Message edited by: donu ]</font>

  10. #30
    Inactive Member XNavyDrummer's Avatar
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    Rudy,
    Keeping the back fingers out of the way only applies to the rebound portion of the stick motion. The stick should be flying up and back and the back fingers should just hang down while the stick moves. The next step is to use the back fingers to snap the stick back down. This is followed by the wrist moving up and getting ready for the next sequence. I only play matched grip. Perhaps one of the traditional types at HOD can discuss the Moeller technique for the left hand.

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